March 30. The Earl of Oxford beg ged leave to bring a very important bulinefs before the Houfe. In confequence of his motion for Peace being negatived, he had come down to the Clerk's room next day to enter a Proteft upon the books; but, to his furprife, he found that Lord Kenyon had carried off the motion in his pocket. He therefore moved, "That a Lord Chancellor carrying away a motion from the Table of their Lordships, was guilty of a high breach of the Privileges of their Houfe; and that Lord Kenyon, acting as Pro-Chancellor, having carried away his motion, had been guilty of a high breach of Priviledge, and ought to be cenfured." The Bishop of Rochefter moved, "That the 77th landing Order of that Houle fhould be read, which declares it to be a high breach of Privilege to print any part of the proceedings of that Houfe without the uthority of their Lordships." When he came down to the Houfe on this day, he conceived that the Noble Earl had it in contemplation to move that the Printer and Publisher of a Newlpaper called The Oracle, had been guilty of a breach of Privilege in publishing, under the title of an Addrefs to the Nation, an account of a debate which had taken place in that Houte, accompanied with remarks figned by the Noble Earl's title of honour. This infamous thing, which the Printer of that Paper had the audacity to publish, was certainly a high breach of the Privileges of their Lordfhips; and as the Noble Earl feemed to be implicated in the publication, it would have been very becoming in him to have come forward and vindicated his own dignity along with that of the Houfe. Ed. Mag. June 1797. The Rt. Rev. Prelate proceeded to advert to one or two of the paragraphs in this Addrefs, and reprehended, with much feverity, one in which Lord Grenville's reply to the Noble Earl's motion is termed poor, weak, and rude; and likewife the concluding fentence, in which the Parliament is called their, that is, the People's Parliament. He faid, that the Houfe of Commons, as chofen by the People, might properly be called their Reprefentatives; but that Parliament, as compofed of Lords and Commons, was in conflitutional language, and by the law of the land, the King's Parliament.-He mentioned this phrafe in particular, becaufe when rafh and inexperienced young men made use of fuch expreffions, there was fometimes more meant by them than met the ear. He concluded with faying that were it confiftent with perfonal refpect for his Lordship, he would term, the prefent a moft petulent motion. Marquis Townshend could not agree with the Noble Prelate, that the Parliament was the King's Parliament; it was reprefentative of, and confequently the Parliament of the Nation. The Bishop of Rochester explained, that what he meant was, that Parliament as an aggregate body, and compofed as it was of Lords and Commons, was the King's Parliament; he was fubject to correction if he was wrong. The Noble Prelate added, that he would have moved, that the Printer and Publisher of the Oracle had been guilty of a high breach of privilege, had he not conceived that fuch a motion would have come with more propriety from the Noble Earl (of Oxford.) Marq. Townshend faid, that he would have no objection to a Motion being made by the Noble Prelate, that the Printer and Publisher of that Paper had been guilty of a high breach of privilege; the more fo, as he had obferved an infamous fallehood in another Morning Paper of this day, ftating the fubftance of an answer faid to have been made by his Majefty to a Noble Earl, when no anIwer had been made at all. 3 N Earl of Suffolk ftated, that certainly no anfwer had been made by his Majefty on the occafion alluded to, and that what he had faid had been grofsly mifreprefented in the fame paper. The motion being put, The Earl of Oxford was the only Peer, who faid Content. Nothing material occurred in the Upper Houfe from this time till April April 24. The Duke of Grafton expreffed his furprife at the abfence of Minifters, when their Lordships and the Public might naturally be fuppofed to be anxious for fome information refpecting the rumours which had lately been in circulation. Whether thofe rumours were falfe, or whether they were founded in fact, he was unable to determine; but of course he concluded they were falfe, because he had no authority to state them to be true. Their Lordships muft have known, through the medium of the public prints, and popular reports, that three very great and alarming events were faid to have taken place during the recefs.The firft was, a feparate Negociation for Peace between his Imperial Majefty and the French Republic, which must be impoffible, fince no perfon in Adminiftration had chofen to apprife their Lordfhips. The fecond was, the report of increafed difturbances in Ireland, which muft be equally erroneous; and the other was, a fort of detailed and circumftantial account of the infurrection of the Seamen on board of his Majefty's fleet at Portsmouth, which must be equally untrue, or their Lordships would have been officially acquainted with it, and informed of the measures adopted to reftore peace and fubordination. If they had been true, their Lordships ought to have been informed of every circumftance by a Meffage from the Crown, unless it was the intention of Minifters to realize an opinion which he had heard fome time ago, that their Lordships merely fat in that Houfe to regifter the acts of Adminiftration. He warned their Lordships to be cautious how far they repofed an unconftitutional confidence in Minifters; and, though he had no motion to offer, he hoped he fhould foon hear further of the points which he had ftated, and refpecting which the public mind was fo much interested. The Lord Chancellor left the woolfack, in order to obferve upon three events mentioned by the Noble Duke. With regard to any Negociation of the Emperor for Peace, he faid, he knew nothing more of it than what he had read that morning in the newspapers. A mail had, indeed, arrived within two or three hours, which might have brought further intelligence; but with the contents he was wholly unacquainted. With regard to Ireland, he believed that every thing was much in the fame ftate now as it was before the recess, and that ac counts in newspapers were so much ex aggerated that they ought not to be relied on. As to the fleet at Portfmouth, he believed he could affure their Lordhips that every part of it was in a ftate of tranquillity, and that the Sailors had returned to the ordinary discharge of their duty. The late arrival of the Mail might, he thought, in fome measure account for the abfence of his Majefty's Minifters that day; and he had no doubt but that to morrow they would be ready and willing to give the Noble Duke every information he might require on thefe fubjects. HOUSE OF COMMONS. March 9. The Order of the Day for taking the Reports of the Committee of Secrecy into confideration being read, The Chancellor of the Exchequer obferved, that the Reports related to two particular accounts; one, the competency of the Funds to defray the outstanding engagements of the Bank; and the other, the neceffity of continuing and confirming the Order of Council on the 26th of February laft. In regard to an enquiry in Parliament, he confidered it as a proper and neceffary measure, becaufe the House and the Public would thereby have an opportunity of seeing, that it was not without a due fenfe of the neceffity, that Government had fufpended the further payments of the Bank in fpecie, becaufe, if the Bank had cafh enough to affift the public, it was impoffible that their ultimate fecurity fhould not be eftablished on clear grounds. He fhould take the general fenfe of the Houfe on the neceffity of continuing the reftriction; and afterwards, he should with to have the real fituation and refources of the country enquired into; the preffure of the prefent burdens, and the probable effects of new ones; the meafures moft important for the prefervation of the public fafety, and the effect of the meafures hitherto adopted. He was folicitous for a firm and candid investigation into all thefe fubjects; and having fo declared himself, he concluded by fubmitting his firft motion, " That it be an Inftruction to the Chairman of the Committee to move the House for leave to bring in a Bill to confirm the reftrictions impofed by an Order of Council of the 26th of February laft on the payment of specie by the Bank for a limited time." Mr Fox began by ftating, that he could not coincide in the measure propofed of guaranteeing the notes iffued by the Bank; for it tended to cement Go vern vernment and the Bank; and every thing that went to unite diftinct functions in the public department, was, in his opinion, a great and additional calamity to the nation. Any Minister who advised his Majefty to prorogue his Parliament until public credit was reftored, fhould it laft for five years, ought, in his opinion, to be impeached. Mr Fox, after reviewing the neceffity of the meafures which led to the Order of Council, which he termed not only a breach of faith, but an act of robbery, proceeded to ftate his objections to the appointment of a Secret Committee to enquire into the caufes of the neceffity. He declared he fhould oppose going into a Secret Committee by ballot, convinced, as he was, from the experience of many years, that a Committee of that kind was the fame as if actually appointed by the Minifter. Sir F. Sinclair objected to the word confirm, as tending to give a legislative fanction to the Order of Council. Mr Pitt explained, that nothing more was meant by the word, than to give a legal force and credit to a measure which the Committee had declared to be neceffary. The queftion, that leave be given to bring in the Bill," was then put and carried without a divifion. The Bank. March 10. Mr Sheridan, in conformity to notice, brought forward his motion on the affairs of the Bank. In a fpeech of confiderable length, he entered upon a general review of the relative fituation of the Bank to Government and the Public; commented on the reports of the Committee, on which he founded his motion; pointed out the critical ftate of public credit; deprecated a forced paper currency, which he confidered as the prelude to national infolvency, and as an opiate in a fever; and concluded by moving as a refolution, "That it is the opinion of the Houfe, that immediate fteps ought to be taken to enable Government to discharge the fum of 11,686,cool. or a part due from it to the Bank." Mr Grey feconded the motion Mr Pitt very ably replied to the arguments of the Hon. Gentleman, and concluded with moving the previous quef tion. Mr Sheridan explained, as did Mr Pitt. Mr Fox Supported the motion of his Hon. Friend. vious question 185.—Against it 45. Majority 140. Sinecure Places and Penfions. not March 13. Mr Harrison called the attention of the Houfe to a subject of no fmall intereft and importance to the country, at a period when the public expenditure fo far exceeded the income that there appeared hardly a poffibility of fupporting any longer the accumulated burden to which this calamitous war had given rife. The public burdens, he faid, were not merely occationed by the war expenditure; they were materially increafed by the erection of new offices, and the profufion and prodigality of Minifters in every department, for the benefit of their fatellites and dependants. This prodigality ought to aroufe the jealoufy and indignation of the Guar dians of the Public Purfe. If the prefent fyftem of corrupt influence was checked quietly within the walls of this Houfe, it would be done tumultuoufly without. By that new-fangled monster called Confidence, the offspring of a tooconfiding Houfe of Commons, were the difcuffions and deliberations of the House influenced, and to this undue influence was to be ascribed that train of accumulated burdens which were fo grievously felt by the country. He then mentioned a few places and fees, not amounting to any confiderable fum, which he wifhed to be applied to public purposes; among them were the falary of the third Secretary of State, which he ftated at 500cl. a year, and certain fees, arifing trom Contingent Bills in the War Department, amounting to about 550,000. He animadverted on the profligacy of Adminiftration, and the diftreffes of the Public from the confequent accumulation of taxes, and concluded by moving, as a refolution, "That the extent of fupplies voted to Government fince the commencement of the war, and the enormous increase of taxes upon the people, made it incumbent upon the Houle to enquire, Whether fome alleviation of their burdens may not be produced by the abolition of certain fuperfluous offices, penfions, and exorbitant fees, and likewife what faving may accrue from an economical reform in the public expenditure." Lord W. Ruffel feconded the motion. Mr Pitt, after alluding to fome irrelevant obfervations made by the mover and feconder of the motion, remarked, A divifion took place. For the pre- that the mover appeared to have two 3 N 2 6 dif different objects in view; the firft relative to the making retrenchments, and correcting profufion in the established offices of Government, and in finecure places and penfions-the fecond to an enquiry into the ftate of the national expenditure, and propofing a check on the expences of the ftate. This latter was already comprehended in a refolution which had pafled the Houfe, to enquire into the finances of the country, and to confider of the most practicable means for obtaining a diminution of the public expenditure. "The H n. Gentleman means to include in the investigation which he proposes, fubjects of the woft extenfive and co.nplicated nature. He wishes to embrace all the ordinary and extraordinary expences of the different branches of Government. He extends his enquiry into the disbursements of Army, Navy, and even public eftablifhments. I am ready to admit (faid Mr Pitt) that as far as this propofition goes, it forms a fubject worthy the confideration of the Houfe; and the magnitude of it appears to be fuch, that no man can fay what will be the effect of it, or to what particular measures it may lead. Yet, the Hon. Gentleman in bringing beIfore the House confiderations of fuch extenfive views, and of fuch high im portance, adopts a very fingular mode of proceeding. He does not think proper to offer matters, fo momentous and complicated in their relations, in a direct manner, to Parliamentary difcuffion; but ftates them as the object of a collateral enquiry, and introduces them immediately after his motion for retrenchment in the offices of Government. But certainly the Hon. Gentleman will not deny that there is an extreme difference between both objects; for the check which he propoles on the public expences very much exceeds in importance that reform which he wishes fhould take place in the establishment and falaries of public offices. The diftinction between these two objects being fo evident, as the latter does not form any part whatever of the propofition formerly fubmitted to the Houfe by the Hon. Gentleman, nor of the notice which he gave of his motion of this night, I must confider the manner of introducing it not only irregular, but inadequate to the magnitude of the enquiry which he propofes to establish. I alfo think it neceffary to remind Gentlemen, that the objects which it comprehends form the grounds of my motion for the appointment of the Committee which has this night been chofen by ballot. I ftated in general terms, previous to my bringing forward that motion, the various points to which the attention of the Committee was to be directed; but I could not, until I appointed that Committee, proceed to offer, in a fpecific manner, each of thofe points. I therefore only ftated, that it was my wish and defire to move, as an inftruction to the Committee, that, after enquiring into and afcertaining the whole ftate of the finances of the country-after reviewing the whole amount of the debt which had been incurred during the war-after inveftigating the provifions which had been made to meet it-after confidering the probable amount of the total expence of public fervice for the whole of the year 1797, and the fums now applicable to defraying it; the Committee fhould exercife a full power in forming and digefting a plan for comptrolling the public expenditure, and to enquire and report upon the heft and most practicable means of obtaining a diminution thereof. I therefore am not a little furprized, after ftating these measures in general termsmeasures which have been fanctioned by the unanimous concurrence of the House, in confequence of the appointment of the Committee for the profeffed and acknowledged confideration of thofe very objects, that the Hon. Gentleman fhould now bring forward a motion to the fame end, and without any previous notice whatever. After reafoning with much ingenuity and effect on the juftice and propriety of the offices under confideration, Mr Pitt called the attention of the Houfe to the reduction that had already been made, and the favings that had been made in confequence. Under this notion of an economical reform in 1981, and a fubfequent enquiry by the Treafury, 278 offices had been abolished, and the expences reduced from 171,000l. to 60,000l. The falaries of the Exchequer Office had been materially reduced, ac had the Auditors of Imprefs. The favings from thefe were nearly 60,cool. The Penfion Lift had been reduced fince 1783 above 48,000l. and during the fame period Sinecures in the Cuftoms to the amount of 130, the expence of which was 10,680l. had been fuppreffed. In the Excife there was a faving of nearly 12,000l. and Lotteries, &c. were under fuch regulation as prevented corrupt influence. To To afcertain the fate of the expenditure compared with the income, was a fair fubject of inveftigation. Convinced as he was, that any attempt at enquiry, with a view to the production of an efficient refource from the materials propofed, would end in difappointment, he Thould move the previous question, not wifhing to preclude the Houfe from enquiry, fhould it afterwards be judged expedient. He accordingly moved the previous question. Mr Sheridan fupported the original motion; he admitted there were many Offices that were not overpaid, but there were a very great number that called either for abolition or reformation. He obferved, the Gentleman oppofite to him had places to the amount of 10,000l. per. ann. but allowed he was a very active fervant of the public. The Minifter him felf alfo had a finecure, and undoubtedly deferved it, for having brought the country into its prefent happy and prof perous fituation! Adverting to the number of Peers created by the present Adminiftration, 160, he cenfured it as a la vifh diftribution of Minifterial Favours. Mr. Rofe faid, that of the offices enumerated by Mr Sheridan, there were three which he did not at prefent hold, and one which he never poffeffed. To the fituation of Clerk of the Houfe of Lords he was appointed in confequence of an Addrefs of the Houfe of Peers to his Majefty. His falary as Secretary to the Treasury was rightly ftated at 3200l. 2 year, which was 2000l. a year lefs than any of his predeceffors. Mr Wyndham confidered the motion in a ridiculous point of view, and expreffed his indignation at any petty fyftem for faving the ends of farthing candles and the parings of cheese ! Mr Fox faid, the finecures alluded to in the motion were merely the power of holding nominal places under Government, without a plea of neceffity or the fanction of a grant from the Crown. Mr Burke's reforin did not confine itfelf to a fubject of one or ten thousand pounds. Its object was the faving of millions. He lamented that Mr B. had affociated with and fupported an adminiftration conftituted on principles directly oppofite to those maintained in moft of his own books. He contended that had it not been for the fupport Minifters received from perfons holding finecure places, the fate of France would never have been fo formidable as to have diftruffed this country with fuch heavy ca lamities; had it not been for the influence of the Crown, France would not have poffeffed Belgium, Holland, or Italy.-With regard to the argument that the influence of Parliament could act in contradiction to its fentiments, he had the authority of Mr Burke, who, in one of his late pamphlets, had afferted that the minority fpoke the fentiments of the majority. Alluding to Mr Wyndham and others who had feceded from their former connexions, he faid, he was convinced, fuch as quitted their friends, and fwerved from the principles to which they were formerly attached, knew not their own motives. views of ambition end in reducing them to a fate of infufficiency and indifere tion. Thefe feceffions of perfons from their eftablished connections created a jealoufy in the minds of the people that was pregnant with public mischief. However he and his friends might be defirous to be employed as oftenfible agents of the country, he wifhed the prefent motion might pass, in order to prove to the people, that the view of poffeffing a place was not merely that of emolument; on this principle he wished to destroy the exiftence of finecure places. Their Mr Rofe, in fome warmth, obferved, that Mr Fox, who had diffipated his own fortune, was not, he thought, the moft proper advocate for public economy. Mr Fox, in reply, obferved, that Minifters in their wish to infult him on his having fpent his own fortune, were not angry for his having diffipated it, but for not having been mean enough to repair it. Some warm words paffed between Mr Fox and Mr Rofe, as to the reversions held by both of them. Mr Fox faid, fe veral Exchequer and other offices, after the lives of the prefent poffeffors, ought to be abolished. Upon a divifion there appeared, For the previous queftion 167, against it 77. The members of the Committee are, Fra. Gregor, J. H. Addington, Rowland Buidon, Henry Thornton, John Harrifon, R. B. Sheridan, C. Abbott, John Crewe, R. P. Carew, Ffqrs. Right Hon. Dudley Ryder, Hon. St And St John, Cha. Yorke, Efq. Rt. Hon. T. Steele, Tho. Stanley, and Wm. Baker, Efqrs. Mr Sheridan moved, that the name of Mr Fox be added to the Committee. Ayes 75, Noes 148. March 17. Leave was given to bring |